FC Experts Blogs
July 15, 2007
Work/Life: Don't Talk About Kids to People Without Kids
Right at the outset, I'll do the politically correct thing and say, I've got nothing against kids.
In fact, I'd happily trade places with a lot of them right now: I'd get fed, watered and put to beddy-bye under duvet dotted with cotton tail bunnies with a gentle kiss; I'd get adored and cuddled when I least want it but that's OK, it's better than begging for it; I'd get driven around to a smorgasbord of expensive activities like soccer and baseball (remember when the school throw-the-beanbag P.E. session was free?); I'd get handed the latest iGizmo (some tots are already killing this blog entry on their iPhone) and told to go fly my Millenium Falcon XIII. I could smear jam all over my face and get called 'cute' rather than be committed. Oh to be a kid!
But if you want my business, or even friendship, then as one of the handful of people who don't have kids, please spare me the harping on about your kids, and see what turns up.
Someone wanted to engage in a lunch appointment with me, seeking my business. It required a bit of to-ing and fro-ing on email and phone. Every single communication of his somehow entailed a logistic around his stepdaughter Mish. I wasn't particularly interested in a blow by blow account of his nose blowing and taxicabbing or playgrouping activities with Mish, I just needed to know if we could make the appointment or not.
Thinking back, every other conversation with this person over the past few years has also involved the same long diatribe. We'd become friends of sorts, but I knew little about him because we never got beyond Mish. It left me wondering why I had this family man in my life at all. An acquaintance certainly, but we can find any number of those in a phonebook or the checkout line at SafeWay.
How could this harping on about his kids potentially leave me feeling, even for a fleeting moment?
Left out. Inadequate. One of those poor sods hovering on the fringes of the seething furry mass in March of the Penguins, eggless and forlorn, while thousands of happy pair-nguins protectively guard their orb. But only for a moment. I'm human, I react, I get over things, I move on. But if you knew your words had that effect on me, AND you were trying to engage me for business, would you be so inconsiderate?
Did it make me want to do business with him? Not really. It made me feel we're not pedaling our trikes in the same cul-de-sac.
Now extend this notion – smalltalk is fine, it brings people closer, but choose your subject matter with care for relevance and relatedness to your audience. A former business partner would talk ceaselessly about his wife's health as a reason why he could not honor a contractual obligation to me. As much as I empathized, and lost money to him to prove it, there was nothing in the contract about her health. I'd have preferred it if he'd simply said, 'I'm sorry, I just can't deliver.'
I am not saying that you cannot talk about things that are important to you. In fact, by doing so, you can bring people closer. But be mindful - it takes two to make a conversation. You can have all the creds in the world to do a particular job, but you might be sabotaging yourself from real success just by what you're putting out. Bit like having awful BO but being a brilliant hairdresser - you might find yourself relegated to clipping poodles - though at least they'll love you to death.
So if you want to do business with childless wonders, spare them your kiddie talk, and I promise I'll spare you the tedium of eating guinea pig in Peru or slumming it in 4-star converted fortresses while biking across Italy.
Besides, if you harp on about your kids, I might just decide I gotta have one.
Oh no, I forgot to have children!
Posted by Lynette Chiang at July 15, 2007 7:15 PM | Topic: work/life |
17 Comments
ADVERTISEMENT
Featured Services
FC Experts MENU
FC EXPERTS TOPICS
FC READS
Girrrrrl,
Who on earth would want to talk about their kids when you have such adverturous tales to tell?
Your article is hilarious and I can totally get where you are coming from. Im a 26 year old women with friends that have children and they dont even realize that there life now revolves around there child. Can we have a conversation about anything else except for taylors walking, or talking, she going potty on the toliet,or she likes to dance to Justin Timberlake. What is a 2 yr old listening to JT anyway. Where is the time that we talked about what we wanted to do when we grew up, or the latest fling in our life. I hate getting older, I guess its time to grow up huh. Well atleast for them anyway:) Keep up the fabulous work and I cant wait for your next article!! Sincerly, Darci
Wow, what a rant. "Don't talk to me about your whiny, bratty kids. Oh, by the way, I'm self-centered and blow my money on fancy trips and pink bikes." But through the mess of this piece, the point is valid - it takes two to make conversation. Be conscious of what the other person (or people) is feeding back to you. I'm equally bored when a co-worker rambles on about their clubbing, womanizing nights on the town.
Don't throw the dog out with the bathwater.
As a relatively recent member of the parenting club, I can say that I've been on both sides of the fence. Recently enough to remember I've been bored to tears with stories about other people's kids, and more recently I've been frustrated by other people's inabilities to understand the constraints that I sometimes have to operate under as a parent of small kids.
But I've also worked in environments where there was no discussion - at all - of anything other than work concerns. I left the sterile dreariness of that environment. I'd rather be with people, even people who have different interests/passions/activities than my own, than be with work automatons.
It sounds to me like you've had experiences in which the life situation of people who happened to be parents become a barrier to an effective work interaction. But don't blame talking about kids. That can be true about any life situation: the chronically late, the chronically sick, the chronically "I didn't get it done", the chronically "I didn't remember".
There's a difference between talking about a topic and it becoming an barrier to work. Since every topic will surely be offensive to someone (nothing turns me off more than any mention of professional sports), we can either be tolerant of topics we're not interested in, or choose to discuss nothing. We all desire better than to be work automatons.
The trick is in finding ways to deal constructively with issues that become barriers to work.
I'm not sure why you think this post is necessary, but until you have kids you can't understand why people (their parents) might want to talk about them.
People talk about things that don't allow them to live some perfect life where they get to decide what happens when. Kids, among other things, are part life, and people talk about life.
And I'm only wasting my time commenting on this because it is such a wierd thing to post on FastCompany...that and the fact that your bike is one of the most daft looking I've ever seen.
Have a nice life.
On one's journey in life, having kids is expanding your experiencial horizon. Some people tend to stay within this horizon. Others move on to seek new horizons. Having had my own children it exposed me to feelings that I would not have experienced without children, but as they (the chidren) evolve, so do I. Each person experiences his own truths.
Thanks Joe Mobile for getting the point of my rant. I could have said it in as few words, but then the responses wouldn't have been nearly as colorful. It's interesting how discussing one of the ten touchy topics (can you name the others?) causes people to attack the messenger's own appearances and choices in life. Fascinating.
However, I admit that when I read that DiCapreo flew to France for the screening of his new global warming movie Eleventh Hour in a private jet, I, like the critic, saw his action as completely incongruent, unnecessarily reducing his credibility and that of his movie. I am curiously examining myself to see if that's a knee jerk response just like Marc, who wonders why I felt the need to post this topic about kids on Fastcompany? Well Marc, I did it because I can! Thank you all for your energy.
A good read, Gal. Also good to see these self-righteous baby-makers get all defensive or justify their "experiencial horizons."
I'd rather PRACTICE making a baby than have one.(And your bike is fine-- Marc is a troll who hasn't slept yet, or trying to get the toast out of the CD tray. "Cute.")
Dear GalFromDownUnder,
Please don't imply that those who choose to have children lead unadventurous lives. I have 2 children.
With your somewhat middling travel experiences, I can see that you'd probably be defensive of them. They're nice, but honestly they're nothing that many many people haven't done several thousand times over. They're honestly no big deal at all. I mean, they're OK, but why do you put them out there as if doing them is something special?
What you've done is a good little start into the world (why haven't you gotten farther along?), and while you should be proud of the experiences that you had, you should hardly lord them over others. To do so makes those who have done FAR more and still had children kind of pity you.
(biking across Italy? Please. Try motorcycling alone across North Africa with an Arabic phrasebook, getting shot at by a herder because he thought you were a Touraeg militiaman scout, then getting invited into his house by way of apology, , trying out the same AK-47 he was shooting at you with, staying for a week and helping him in the fields, then right before leaving having him admit that though he was looking for a match for his daughter, you weren't quite it. "Biking across Italy" and you thinking you actually had a unique experience to the point of bragging about it "My life experiences are superior to yours, silly breeder!" is rather laughable. In case you're wondering, the protagonist in the story is me in one of my many small adventures. I'm a self-employed engineering consultant, so I actually get to take enough time off to have real adventures.)
Maybe you should quiet down the boasting and try having a real adventure sometime.
George
Thank you for the post, GalFromDownUnder.
After being asked by my shrink (again) why---as a 34 year old man---I have no desire to have kids, I googled "famous people that don't have kids" and found no list, but stumbled upon your post.
I also talked to a few friends about the question. Of course, all the parents in the bunch asked "Well... why don't you want kids? They're so great." I'm sure they are. For you.
Having kids is such a momentous decision for those who do choose to do it that they can't seem to accept the answer that is true for me: I have absolutely no desire to have kids.
What does it say about the state of affairs that I'm actually signing this post with a pseudonym? It seems a liability to openly admit that one doesn't care to have children. (Not only that, I'm an agnostic, too. The horror!)
It just bugs me that I'm supposed to explain this. (It's the more intense version of my other favorite "Really? You don't drink alcohol?") Why isn't it the same as "Why don't you like calamari." I just don't. "OK. Fair enough."?
Going against the biological imperative is a big taboo. Very frustrating. That said, if you'll accept this from a godless, childless lefty artist: I like your bike.
George! Your post is rich in accusations, assumptions and non sequiturs. A fascinating response. There's clearly a cultural thing happening here too: our disparate notions of 'irony'... thank you for taking the time - a compliment in my book.
Excuse my platitudes, but, different strokes for different folks. It takes all kinds. And hey, letting loose with a good rant (or reading one) is a good way to look in the mirror at one's own assumptions.
Lynette, the issues of becoming/not becoming a parent clearly trouble you. I think that you find them a bit frightening, especially after my reading about your own childhood.
Parenting my one child has been a transformative experience for me, but there are other transformative experiences, and other legacies to leave, and only so much time to live, and some of us make better parents than others -- I can be very glad glad that my wife is more talented as a parent than I am :-)
There are many opportunities less taxing than that of the Peruvian nun and less definitive than bringing a child into the world, or adopting one, to involve oneself with children, and to see where that leads. Your choice. We are fortunate to live in a part of the world and in a time that let us make our own choices in such matters.
All in all, though, people more often get to appreciate the *parents* of illustrious people rather than their *children*. Illustrious people can always point to their parents as an influence either to praise or to overcome, but people who are illustrious as parents often go without recognition, and as the genetic dice and other influences roll, can't count on how their children will turn out!
GFDU:
Quite simply, your travel experiences are mediocre, your tone snide, and your writing sub-par. You add nothing to the body of thought on choosing child-free, and for you to imply that your life experiences somehow make up for not having children is arrogant at best.
I do not begrudge you for choosing to be childfree, but it didn't make you some special person. Again. People have done far far more than you and still had children.
Perhaps you should try having a truly great adventure (to this point, you haven't) - and then, wonder of wonders - don't tell a single person about it. You would benefit greatly from a dose of actual humility.
George
George,
Shhhhhh .... you're absolutely right. My 'adventures' aren't real adventures at all, just random acts of what seemed like a good idea at the time. And kids: I confess I just blogged about what was true for me, instead of researching the existing body of knowledge about childlessness. I was hoping I wouldn't be found out, but dang it, you've blown my cover - you can't fool an engineer. Before FastCompany discover what a fraud I am, I invite you to share more about your successful life as an adventurer and father. I am sure readers will appreciate it. I promise not to comment further, as I wouldn't dream of comparing your life to mine. Over to you, man!
"My 'adventures' aren't real adventures at all, just random acts of what seemed like a good idea at the time."
More humble. Much better. Try to keep that in mind in the future.
George
Hey Gal.. I have 3 kids and felt just like you. I had my first child at 38 and two more followed into my 40's, I've been on both sides. I'm glad people know when they don't want kids, better than to have them and not want them right ? No use arguing with anyone about it, you really cannot ever know what it's like for those of us with children until you have one of your own. Case closed ! Nice bike !
Anne
My situation is a little different, but it relates. I was a single parent for 19 years. I had my son when I was 19 years old and loved every single minute of it. I was amazed at the depth of love I felt when I had my son. To me it was the best feeling in the world! My son brought more joy into my life than any other person, adventure, or thing. He was and is full of joy, love, kindness, laughter, and fun. I’m sure those feelings about kids don’t happen for everyone so I agree with the others who said that people who don’t have a desire to have a child shouldn’t have one.
Unfortunately, my son died in a motorcycle accident at the age of 19. His death was by far the hardest event I’ve ever experienced in my life. I’ve come a long way in my grief after 3 ½ years of missing him. One problem I still have is that I work with a woman who constantly tells all the co-workers around her (including me) stories about her two children. On the Monday after my first Mother's Day without my son she came up to me and bragged about what her kids did for her on Mother's Day. My son hadn’t even been buried for a month yet so my grief was very new and painful at that time. I thought that was the most insensitive thing anyone had ever done to me.
Several co-workers and I are very tired of hearing her stories about her children. Many of us try to walk the other way when we see her coming because we are so tired of hearing them. I could handle a brief comment like, "My son was in a tournament and they won." but telling me a play-by-play account of a game is really unnecessary and very annoying. I love kids, but I don't have an interest in hearing tons of stories about kids that I’m not emotionally attached to. I think she should save those stories for her relatives and friends who know and love her kids.
I think people need to read social clues from others. If someone appears to avoid you or doesn’t say much when you talk about your kids, then think about what the reason might be. Maybe a light bulb will go off and you'll realize other people don't want to hear about every detail (or perhaps any detail) of your children's lives. It doesn’t mean they’re bad people. It just means they’re not emotionally connected to your kids the way you are.
So far I have been polite to this co-worker when she tells me about her children, but I’m almost to the point that I need to tell her I don't want to hear stories about her kids anymore. I dread doing it because I think it will hurt her feelings, but I want to do it in a kind way before I get too frustrated and tell her in an unkind way.
To the gentleman who said he is agnostic and to any others who might be, I hope you will accept God as your savior someday soon. None of us knows how long we will be here. My son was here only 19 years. The Bible says you have to accept Christ in order to have eternal life after you die, and I believe that is true.
I raised my son, Christopher, to know and love God and he did. Because of that, he accepted Christ when he was a child and again as a young adult a few months before he died. I know he is in Heaven enjoying his eternal life there and that I will be with him when I leave this earth. I’m looking forward to that day because I miss him so much and because I love God so much. I still love my life on earth, but I know that life in Heaven with God and the people I love will be much better. Life on earth is very short compared to eternity in Heaven with God.
I have always had a relationship with God since I was a child, but a few years ago I really started living according to how Jesus taught us to live. Every time I apply the truth I find in the Bible, I am blessed beyond words. I can even see how the bad things that have happened to me in life have worked for my good. (“All things work together for good to them that love God.” Romans 8:28) God’s words are true. I know this for a fact. I have tried them by living them and God has never let me down!
I know some people get turned off when Christians witness to them, but when you know the truth about God you want that same truth and the gift of salvation for everyone. I’m sharing these experiences with you because I hope I see you in Heaven someday.
The best things you can do to begin a relationship with God are the following: 1) Find a church that teaches from the Bible. Keep visiting different churches until you find one that you like. 2) Read the Bible and apply it to your life. When it says, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” try it. You won’t be sorry. 3) Listen to good pastors on t.v. Two of the best are Joyce Meyers and Joel Osteen. Do a Google search on the Internet for their websites and t.v. schedules in your area. and 4) Ask God to come into your heart. Even if you’re not sure about God, tell him that. Tell God you accept him by faith. He’ll be there for you and he will come into your life and never leave. If you would like a pocket-sized New Testament, please send me your address. I would love to send one to you.
P.S. I think biking across Italy would be so awesome!! Someday I hope to go on long bike adventures with my son in Heaven.